X9 Owners & Riders Club

Sounds a high cost for the pads especially if they added VAT on top - but the overall cost for the 4000 service doesn't sound too outrageous.  A small price to pay for continued warranty!

Yep, servicing by dealer is a rip off but if you are under warranty what option do you have?
The best way of avoiding being stung is to do all the non-service items yourself, such as pads, tyres, even belts etc leaving only the engine and fluids to be charged labour for. The wear and tear parts are on the service schedule as check and change if necesary, so even if a belt is on the list, if you tell the dealer it has just been done and not to bother he should comply and that way you aren't paying labour charges over and above what is the fixed service cost price.
What some dealers do is add further labour for each additional part on top of the standard charge for the mileage, plus the parts price, and then add VAT on top of the total. One reason you should never have things like tyres done with a service, or for that matter at a dealers at all.

To be fair, when I was not as au fait with the X9 as I am now, my dealer(s) several times found items necessary to be done only because they *were* changing belts, tyres etc.

You can always supply the pads yourself for the dealer to fit - this might be essential on the 250 Evo where the retaining pins can so easily seize up!

The potential cost to me of all the items I've had replaced under warranty far outweighs the amount I've paid in service charges - and that includes only one digidash!

2 months and the scoots out of warantee, did it for peace of mind.

Theres a fair ammount of stuff needing doing on the scooter over the next few months acording to the service manual list from piaggio not least the coolent and brake fluid as checking the past service history of the bike (got the recipts from the first owner) they have never been changed, guess thats the price you pay for owning anything. Want it servicing, you have to pay for it.

Might be taking a trip to JT's some time next year once i pass my test and get my GPS unit fitted

[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]Yep, servicing by dealer is a rip off but if you are under warranty what option do you have?
[/quote]

Would Dave Milnes care to elaborate on this subject, because I personally object to this total drivel being repeatedly posted on this site.

It's nothing short of outrageous slander in fact...  

To service a machine like this, one requires training, specialist knowledge, and a host of tools and equipment that cost a considerable sum of money.

Even with all the above, it requires Premises, Insurance and Time.

Poor Quality service is a rip off, as is blatant overcharging, but dealer servicing for most people is a neccessity, and most certainly not a rip off.

I would be interested in how Mr Milnes can possibly defend this sort of irresponsible behaviour, or will he skulk off into the bushes like he normally does after some half arsed apology, and wait until another time?

Unfortunately not all Piaggio dealers are  like you and Cheeky. There are dealers out there who I wouldn't  allow anywhere near my bike,on the other hand, I would feel quite comfortable to have someone like you or Cheeky work on my bike. It seems the quality of dealers varies enormously. We hear about the good ones, yourself and Cheeky included, and we also hear about the bad ones too, which is just how it should be. I can't believe you are so sensitive JT, everyone is very aware that the service you provide can't be faulted. Its the others that don't give good service that give Piaggio dealers a bad name.  

The trouble is, I'm sure there are many dealers out there who offer perfectly acceptable levels of service, and higher.

The bad ones are actually a minority as always, and unless somebody has undertaken a proper survey on a Nationwide scale, it is not right to hurl these glib sort of comments around.

It's like saying Black guys are muggers.

Sure, some are, but most are normal people like you and I.

I'm astonished anybody listens to this cretin any more.  

I would agree that dealer servicing is pretty much essential for most people, whether in or out of warranty.  However, as long as the bike is otherwise working OK, I reckon a competent[1] person can do all standard service items - but I'd still recommend having it dealers serviced whilst in warranty!  For my out-of-warranty bikes I'd far rather do the standard bits myself as then I get a good chance of being aware of the condition of the bike as a whole, and gain the right knowledge and tools to get myself out of trouble when on the road.

[1] In my book a competent person is one who knows the limits of their knowledge or skill...

The problem with Dave's post is that it is all encompassing, branding every dealer as a charlatan, rogue, rip-off merchant whatever you want to call it.
Like X9 problems it's only when they go wrong that you hear about them, dealers are the same, very few post about the good service they've received as they consider it the norm, as it should be. We all know that John and Cheeky give excellent service but anybody browsing the forum may not know that so perhaps people could qualify their statements when complaining about dealers as I personally don't want to se another war going on on here.

Derek

servicing by dealer is a rip off

I refute this statement utterly.
If one is in the position to service one's own vehicles one is often able to do the job more cheaply in terms of parts.
Labour, however, is another matter altogether;n hour of my time is as costly as anyone else's.

I do not and will not consider the charges I pay for the care of my X9 in any way to be unreasonable, even taking into account the cost of living in the South.
On the contrary, the service I receive is over and above what I could reasonably expect.

Yes, I live within easy reach of a first-class Piaggio business and am fortunate so to do.
Doubtless other people in other parts of the country benefit from similar first-class service in other fields which I do not. However, I will not keep bleating on about it; it's life.

In conclusion, I consider it totally out of order to precipitate a situation which may be detrimental to this club.

   

I think we are going down a route which we have already travelled and don't wish to re-visit again.
I believe it may be best to leave this one to perish on the vine. As I don't think there can be any winners with this one.  

I'm closing this thread for the sake of harmony. If Dave wants to respond he can open it.

A possibly heated topic indeed - but that is no reason for closure.  I've re-opened it, and trust all who post hereafter will do so with some thinking time before posting.

I am totally ignorant of mechanics. I get my tyres and brake pads changed locally, but the rest of my bike's maintenance is done by my dealer. It is expensive, but then still a fraction of the machine's total cost. I'm spending money on peace of mind.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]It's not untypical to find a service price list or 'menu' for individual replacement parts to include all labour charges, but if you ask for two jobs to be done that involve removing the rear wheel for example, generally no discount is given on one job because half the labour time has been eliminated because the wheel was already removed for the other task. The two are added together in total then the VAT is added.[/quote]

Dave, if you know of any Piaggio dealer who has provably done this, then name and shame.  

A lot of what you say I agree with, but then I don't like owning any machine that I can't fettle myself - and I'd love to get an X9 equivalent that didn't have any ECUs etc...  Electronics I don't mind, but being shut out of control of my machine I hate.

With regards to the above quote - recently I had my front tyre changed at JT's workshop.  It was a reasonable price, and they had the elusive MGS in stock.  In the process the front pads were declared to be iffy - well I knew they were, and had spares on me, but thought why not let them get on with it.  With that, the rear pads were also seen to be iffy - yes, I knew they were due, but... so get on with it then.

What was I charged?  The proper price as advertised for the tyre + Ultraseal, and a few, very few, quid extra for the supply and fitting of the rear pads.  That might be because I showed how to replace them without removing the exhaust and wheel (which had been done the week before and *that* mechanic hadn't even glanced at the pads.  ).  The front pads (I provided replacements) changed without charge - well it doesn't take much more than three minutes, does it, when tools are at hand?


So I left feeling I had been well done by, the mechs knew I wasn't complaining, rather the opposite, and on a quietish day JT's made a leetle bit of money out of me, fairy 'nuff.  Not possibly as much as they could have done if the workshop had been very busy, and quite honestly not enough (doing sums in my head) to justify having a service place open at all, if that was the normal level of business. (It wasn't, don't worry John!)


So when I go to JT's I never ask for a discount (oh, ok, on scrap stuff, got me there! ...) but I am invariably offered a 'price' which seems very fair to me.  Mark you, I watch the clock, but I expect to pay at least GBP45 per hour in these circumstances.  That's London I guess - and for some trades is actually very cheap.


So we seem to have JT's, Cheeky's place and Comptons nominated for cluefulness - any more?

I've said it before, I have no complaints of Scootercafe in Maidenhead. Mike Atkinson and Nick, his techy, have served me very well - especially where my (now lost) 500 was concerned. The premises may not be a grand as others, but that is reflected in the labour rate. The personal, verbal abuse is free!!!  

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence to indicate there are plenty of poor servicing experiences around, although this has to be weighed as has been said about criticism of the X9 on here, in that you hear about the bad more than the good examples.
I was a lot more comfortable with the service rates the dealer I bought the 250SL from charged (Sam Taylors), small outfit no frills, but I much prefer my own hourly rate!

Hmm. I dont like people calling people names on here.  The idea is that we can voice our opinions  - OPINIONS - here without fear or favour.

If you choose to take one person's OPINION to heart, that is your choice. You can also choose to ignore it.

Also please be aware that sometimes it is not possible to put down everything so completely that there is no confusion.  It takes time and significant communication skill, both of these are not neccessarily available to everybody all of the time thereby leading to an incomplete and variable reader understanding of the content..

If you read through these forums even occasionally, you may find that Dave Milne is quite knowledgable about the technical issues but maybe he didn't feel it neccessary to qualify his statement further. Maybe the reader who called him a cretin misunderstood the BACKGROUND and simply jumped to the prima facie conclusion - Dave is a cretin.  That being said, as an X9 guru that Dave is, doesn't neccessarily make it stand that his opinions for things outside technical issues are what yours should be also.  Again, you can take it or leave it. Your choice.

It's like the time a few people got stuck into poor ol' Solo for asking "stupid" questions.  How miserable that was, he asked because he wanted to know.  Some of you are experts in whatever your fields or professions are but to call someone lese a cretin, or stupid, or a moron because they don't understand the tacit inflections of your field of expertise doesn't mean they are, just because they don't have the level of knowledge or UNDERSTANDING that you do.

But most importantly this is a forum where we are free to discuss issues without fear or favour. If you come here to pick fault with others, please, go somewhere else.  This is an OPEN forum, that is, we are all entitled to say pretty much as we please.

Do I need to elucidate on this matter further? Chill.


Best regards to all,

Ride long (especially in Oz) and prosper (bit hard in Oz).

PaulK.

servicing an x9 is not rocket science

Neither is using a sewing-machine but how many of us make our own clothes or even use one to turn up a pair of trousers, for example?.....and if not, why not?
(Well, I know the answer to the second part; clothes 'dealers' know that people won't/can't so now produce trousers of all waist measurements in all leg lengths)

Once again we are experiencing the constraints of the written word being used as the sole form of communication.
We cannot see facial expression and body language and hear inflection in the voice.
The technique requires much greater thought and care than most writers feel the need to take in what becomes a spontaneous conversation.
Bald, unqualified statements are met with equally bald, unqualified responses.

There are quite a few people on here who have views with which I do not agree. I know for a fact that they don't agree with mine.
However, some of them I know them personally - face to face - and can see beyond the views to the person and they are good friends agreeing to differ (in public, at least).
I am also privy to other information which may affect their approach from having met and seen them 'in the flesh'.
How much easier this makes things.
I doubt I'm alone in attempting to pretend I know those I haven't met and respond on here as if I do.
Of course there are others I haven't met but about whom I feel the same, not least because they seem to respond to me in the same way.

Perhaps we should follow more closely our oft-quoted maxim: there's no such thing as a stupid question; it's only stupid not to ask.

   

P.S. My choice of quotation is not an attack on the writer; it stimulated thoughts on the situation.

I pay for someone to service my bike and my car and my air conditioner and washing machine and TV and DVD ...

Because servicing them does nothing for me, to do a good job you need to have that little spark that makes you enjoy servicing bit like that...

Give me a computer of any sort.. its what I do and do well and enjoy.. it does get up my nose in people telling what I should or should not do... I'm a big boy and will decide what I do with my time and money...

Anyway I get paid a lot more per hour so using them lets me do my paid work and saves me money...

Mind you not as much as a plumber.. I can only wish to earn that sort of money      I could even buy a Nexus    

Strong views indeed on service charges then.....

Anyway futher to this i have just replaced the rather poor 9aH battey with the one fitted in the 500's and it now starts a lot better and the bike feels compleatly different, all this after the advice i gained from here

How ever a downer to this is that the bike as just past 4200 miles and now i have two gremlins.

At top speed and 10500 rpm the rev needle jumps back to 9000rpm and take forever to get back to 10500, now this doesn't happen all the time and has only just started to happen but never the less it's worrying.

It doesn't seem to be effecting speed, so i don't know if this is just a rev counter issue or theres something else going off.

2ND
The oil warning on the digi dash pops on for 5/10 secs when ever i start the bike up from resting on the side stand, now i not checked the level yet but am guessing that i need to drop a bit of oil in ? thing is should the oil level be checked at a service if so then they havn't done that and they charged be 95 quid for not a lot....


Drew

If the oil light comes on when you switch the X9 on, it is a service reminder - due at 4650 miles. see other thread http://x9.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11022 (http://x9.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11022)

Apex

Please clarify. Do you mean that the word "OIL" shows in the LCD panel, or the square oil can light above comes on?

I have no problem paying THE dealer (the ONLY one in Adelaide) to do my X9.  Last bill was about AUD$230. Included tappets and all.  Very happy with the result. As for the money side, I worked this morning for an hour and billed AUD$880. About 60c worth of parts and a bit of electricity.  So, I 'm quite happy to pay when I can more than make up for it in my time.

Howver, that being said, ultimately, I would LIKE to be able to do it myself so that I understand clearly what is going on under me.

PaulK.

Maybe I can hi-jack this thread?

When I turn on my X9 [BELT] is displayed for the first few seconds, yet my bike was serviced only a few hundred miles ago! Whilst they didn't replace the belt, surely it can't have deteriorated that badly since?

Ashley, any warnings that are displayed on the digidash in text format ie: oil, belt, and service are preprogrammed warnings like an alarm clock, telling you to inspect it, this means that if it was just serviced then dont worry the dealer just forgot to reset it or the warning was'nt on when he saw it.


 BACK TO THE DEALER ISSUE

i wont speak of JT because i have never been there but there  is a dealer here (NOT THOMAS) that i have been disgusted with, 2 times i took my other bike there before the x9 and it was due for its service and when i got it back they had not changed the oil and the second time they changed the oil and not the filter and left 3 bolts out of the engine, when i had trouble with my x9 they put the claim through and took 3 months to order a bloody switch, one of those little black clips fell out on the mirror the second day i got it they said dont worry we will sort it, has been a year and a half now its still got f*cking tape on it when i had my tyre done they didnt balance it and i am under the impression this is essential to a smooth ride.

i can think of many other occasions too and guess what the whole time i pay'd a premium price for this lousy service my next bike WILL NOT be a PIAGGIO because i have had it up to here with the lousy service on a bike that cost me nearly 5,000 quid so i do it my self now and i figure that i have saved enough to buy another x9 the prices i was paying but i think it will be a honda or suzuki this time, i also considered taking my bike to JT in the early day's, but guess what i practicaly got told to f off because i had modified my own bike on this very forum so no thanks piaggio im going jap from now on.

 LOCAL DEALERS


i have only used AR's a few times for parts but the service was spot on, promt supply of parts they were in new contition unlike my other dealer where you would think i was paying for second hand parts and the prices were ok for the promt service, also i recieved some very usefull advice about the x9 before i was even buying parts from them, so Thanks goes out to AR perhapse some other dealers could learn from you.

I don't know how you can say that it is a rip off without knowing what was done and I would assume the customer was happy to pay the charge.  

It is not acceptable to post with the intention of causing offence and I feel that you should retract that statement.

No didi..  What you dont see here is the $100's of thousands of equipment in the workshop (1.2M last count), and for example around $100,00 just in components alone and another $600,000 in whole modules, about years of training and experience, a technical library to die for and the balance of jobs.  Some jobs I lose money and others like this I win. Because the world is run by bean counters, I have to set a fee before they send it. How do you do that in such a volatile service environment?  You take the average time/cost index and set it as your fee per item.

So didi, before you make such a vehement criticism, you were not in command of all the facts and the background.  Like Dave from time to time, we might make a comment that on the surface appears "unrealistic" by your terms. Why should we have to give an essay on background?

I average around $400/hour, but not for 40 hours a week. (I wish). Of that $400, around $300+ goes in fees, expenses and so on. (Check your local dentist for example - same deal, except he can work 40hours/week!).  I don't get to call my work in but my running costs are constant. (Study business management if you need to understand this). Because this stuff is becoming throw away, I'm slowly becoming redundant. and so on and so on.

And by the way, I'm CHEAP.  Nothing I do is ever more than 50% of what Siemens charge (usually significantly less than that) and since they MAKE this stuff, their service costs, diagnostic tools and simulated environemts are a BY PRODUCT of what they do. I have had to set it up without that support. Big difference. They are the rip-offs which is one reason why I have such customers as GeneralMotors, Western Mining, BHP Billiton, (and typically the top 100 companies in Australia).

I also carry the warranty cost for the next 12 months. Most service places will only warranty for 3 months. I always give the customer the benefit of the doubt on warranty even though the odd one has had nothing to do with what the original one was.

So every now and then I make a killing. True. Guilty as charged. What about the three days on a job for $220?  It happens both ways because of the Fixed Price required by the bean counters. One has to take the good with the bad. That just happend to be the best of the best.  In this case it was about 60c in parts, but sometimes just 1 IC can cost $85 or more.  There can be up to 8 of these in one module, rare, bit it happens. so.. I'm a ripoff?

I believe I've made my point and whether you feel that I'm ripping the poor customer off or not, that's the way it is.  

Oh, BTW, I'm not a wealthy man. I -struggle- from time to time as well like most people. I don't get super, no holiday pay, no sick leave, no retirement fund and so on. I live in a shoe box and I live modestly.  My last wife of 14 months took around $400,000 out of the business and I will probably never recover (speaking financially). I actually don't care anymore - there are far more important things in this world than money or wealth.

So you now think, with all those assets I could always sell them and retire very comfortably. Unfortunately that is not possible because nobody else understands this equipment like I do. I am the only individual outside the domestic USA that does this. I can't train someone else to do this - they would buy into a business that works straight away (like a Maccas franchise). So really, I'm stuck with it, like it or not, and when I'm finished, it's all a bin job. I'm being phased out by new throw away technology. (Understand what I just said there.. the implications are deep and wide)

My scoot is my escape.

So, I hope that you now can see things are not always as they seem. (Which actually applies to most things in life).

Does that make you feel better that I made $880 for an hours work? Oh, so far, that's the only job in this week.

Yep, I'm a rip-off.


+++++++EDIT++++++

Oh, I didn't mention my Meniere's Disease. That makes me unemployable by any other means.

I'm not looking for your sympathy, just your understanding.  

I should apologise to you and others for writing that in the first place in such a provocative manner. But anyway, here's the essay. I was so pleased about that job as it paid for my bike to be serviced AND i get to eat!

I have used the 'Preston' dealer for servicing in the past just for the stamp in my service book! It comes to something when it was costing more to service my 250 scoot every year than my 2.7 V6 4X4 (also dealer serviced). The warranty has now expired and I am now servicing the bike myself (including the main stand roller which was always neglected by the main dealer!).

Ray

Thanks for the explanation PaulK, I only wish I had the time or inclination to read it, unfortunately I am far too busy scratching my arse.

Brian, you are out of order. We do not condone that sort of attitude on this forum.

I have received a severe reprimand from one of the moderators by PM Joyce.

OK, so now it is time to move forward as friends(http://bestsmileys.com/handshake/1.gif)

So.  Servicing.

I happily (well, perhaps not happily.  Maybe more "truthfully") admit that I do not understand the workings of my scooter.  This is a drawback, as it costs me money and it also makes me feel a bit daft if anything goes wrong, as I haven't got the first idea where to start.  But, it's where I am.  I do have all sorts of technical knowledge about things that no one in their right minds would like to begin to think about, and that's how I earn my living.

I love my scooter, and I use it as my main form of transport.  It is the thing that enables me to go to work and get decently paid for using my obscure technical knowledge.  It also takes me on great holidays.  These reasons are just the starting points as to why I am happy to take it to a recognised dealer and pay the going rate for work that needs doing (and that includes regular services).

I had an idea of the likely service costs before I bought the bike, and I've always thought of them as unavoidable costs (like insurance, protective clothing, breakdown cover, etc).  For me, my bike pays for itself (versus the only other real alternative - which in my case would be the Tube) over a 2 to 3 year period.  All the fun of riding is an added bonus, and comes for free (even if it is priceless).

If I had a lot of free time, and if I lived somewhere other than a shoebox, and if i had confidence in my ability, and if I had alternative transport for the times when I'd done something wrong, or was waiting for a part, then I'd love to start to learn how to tinker with my bike.  I'd maybe get an old, simple, machine and spend happy hours in the garage tinkering with it.  But none of those "if"s apply to me right now, so I take it to a Piaggio dealer and ask them to sort things for me.  

I realise that a lot of the members on here have knowledge of how to fettle bikes, and have been doing it for some time, and are probably pretty good at it.  They probably also have most/all of the necessary tools, some space to work in, and maybe even an alternative form of transport if the X9 is off the road for a few days.  For them, I imagine it's a different equation altogether.  

I also realise that there is the possibility that some garages could overcharge you, or do bad work.  I'm particularly vulnerable to this, as I start off with next to no base knowledge to gauge things against.  But in this respect it's no different for me than when I deal with any other form of specialised tradesman (be it lawyer, plumber, or mechanic).  So I just try to ask (what I think are) sensible questions, try to look around for recommendations, and try to stick with using people who are recognised in their field and/or members of appropriate trade bodies.  This forum is a great help in giving ideas of what to expect/what questions to ask/naming and shaming bad and good dealers, etc, but at the end of the day I've just got to do sensible preparation and then go with my instincts.  Just like in every other walk of life where I don't have expert knowledge myself.

Theres a surprise  
I'm taking it elsewhere for the 12k service this month, I'll have to wait and see.

Simon, you have expressed my view point very well. I would add one personal  thought........
I am a lazy sod who doesn't like getting his hands covered in grease and dirt.  

My Piaggio dealer is reliable, friendly and trustworthy and, to me, worth every penny. Not sure about the Suzuki dealership yet. They seem friendly anough, but I've not had to ask them to do anything to the Burger yet.

Was  the oil light on the lcd, took it back to the dealer and got it sorted there and then...

just the 2nd issue puzzling me....

Drew

Sorry Apex, that didn't clarify anything for me...

The LCD doesn't have an Oil light.  It does have an 'OIL' icon.  OK, it's an 'OIL' dark if you will... This is of no importance if it comes on, it is merely a reminder.

The red Oil Light however is a stop immediately and check what's up/get towed home situation.

So some precision in your description would be appreciated, especially as it has been asked for before.  Did you ride to the dealer with the red Oil Light on or not?  And if so what did he do?

Was the oil icon on the lcd not the red oil light.

Drew

I came across this thread in a search for the mention of the location of the oil reminder reset switch.
No luck. I'll just whip off the front fairing for a laugh! Hehe ;)

I must say, I am surprised at the amount of posts with no text - seemingly removed 'post' submission.
Especially when someone, admittedly not a mod, mentions the free speech and open opinions that are given time here (as there should be on a public forum).

Possibly but we had a humungous problem with servers(?) and the stalwart Admins and others constructed/moved the whole shebang on to a new system.
Unfortunately, due to the suddenness of said problem arising, some information and posts were lost - I don't understand the random nature of the losses - hence the blank posts.

If I'm not mistaken, posts which are removed by mods disappear completely, not just the text.

 :ph34r: :x9blu:

Mike is right.  Sadly some content is missing from historical posts made on the old system.  Muphry's law dictates that they shall be the ones with the best content and possibly worst spelling.

Fair enough!

;)