X10 500 centre stand problem

[ramjet]

Took my own advice and got a pair of Michelin City Grips at bargain M&P price (The Avons were fine in dry but no feel at all in wet)

While wheels were off I noticed the bike wasn't too level on centre stand. Closer inspection revealed part of right hand centre stand upper bracket had sheared (The loop that goes over captive bolt which is also shared with large rear right swing arm plate)
As the other 2 bolts for the centre stand bracket were removed to get the wheel plate off there was nothing holding the right hand centre stand bracket!

Quickly put it on side stand. I've changed wheels a couple of times so must have got away with it before. I would advise anyone removing the back wheel to get the side plate back on and the bolts back in for stability until the wheel is ready to go back in.
 Fortunately the break was a clean one and a local blacksmith welded it in 5 minutes for £5! Back together now and seems to be none the worse. (I know there were some 350 centre stand problems recently but the 500 is different)

Also noticed the rear brake and parking brake pads were very low so have ordered new ones. Took the opportunity to get a bit of WD40 on the pad pin heads on both calipers, but not looking forward to the next stage!

[Mike H]

Originally it's some sort of a locking compound like blue paint. Might need to invest in an impact driver and matching hex bits set. On both mine I took them all out and put back with copper grease. The blue X10 came with new rear pads, so already been disturbed, but the front brakes were practically seized on due to the pistons jamming. Freed them, Brembo greased then copper grease on the pad pins. Having learned all this, when I got the brand new white X10 later it all came off for the same treatment, never mind that it's straight out the factory. This was just a few of several "improvements" that you need to do to a new X10. 

[ramjet]

Thanks Mike. Have read all about the pad pin problems. Calipers not seized, so will hopefully be OK. I have a decent Teng ratchet and allen bits waiting, and also impact driver and bits if required. According to the manual it's a medium strength Loctite used.
Will see how it goes, but definitely plan to clean everything up and copaslip where required. Just waiting for pads to arrive.

[roadster]

Without wanting to add to your anxiety about these pins they can defy all normal methods of removal. The design flaw is that in using an internal hexagon which is far smaller than would normally be used for a thread of this size it is all too easy to apply more torque than the strength of the head can stand with either rounding or just causing expansion which effectively jams it even tighter. Some heat can be applied locally but not so much that the hydraulic seals could be damaged. Knowing the issue in advance it is probably a good idea to apply some concussion with a small punch right in the centre where there is no risk of damaging the hex profile. Any undue twisting force, whether with leverage or with an impact driver stands a chance of rounding out the hex or breaking your bit. I have had to painstakingly drill these out and clean up the thread with a tap so I wish you the best of luck.

[ramjet]

Thanks Roadster. I have the pads now but will probably leave it a week or so as I only have 4 more scooter commutes to go for the year. None of the X10 jobs I have done (oil/gearbox oil changes, wheel changes, air filter changes, mounting satnav and dashcam) have been remotely straightforward so I don't expect this to be any different. I have had motorcycles for about 36 years and the Piaggio is right up there as being most difficult to work on! (The other worst was a Benelli TnT)

[Scootypuff Snr]

(The other worst was a Benelli TnT)

Off topic but can I ask what was so tough on the Benelli TnT as often looking out for one or a cheap Grom for ***** & giggles but on a tight budget

[ramjet]

Every bolt or item on the TnT just seemed to have unnecessarily awkward access (bit like the X10 really) As I was the 4th or 5th owner most of the awkward bits were already stripped or chewed. I loved the look of it, and being a big naked bike with minimal bodywork, access should have been good. I'm sure you'll have done your research but make sure you get one with the Z25 gear mod already done (make sure it restarts OK when hot)

But the reason I got rid of it was it ran hot all the time, when you slowed or stopped, even in Scotland. Stopped at traffic lights the fans would come on, then the headlights would switch off. Changed coolant and checked whole system which was OK, it's just how they ran. I can't imagine how they behaved in downtown Rome or Palermo. If it's not your only bike, and you just do open road runs, it's a great looking bike with lots of grunt and decent handling.

[Mike H]

Thanks Roadster. I have the pads now but will probably leave it a week or so as I only have 4 more scooter commutes to go for the year. None of the X10 jobs I have done (oil/gearbox oil changes, wheel changes, air filter changes, mounting satnav and dashcam) have been remotely straightforward so I don't expect this to be any different. I have had motorcycles for about 36 years and the Piaggio is right up there as being most difficult to work on! (The other worst was a Benelli TnT)

Don't forget also the parking brake. On the blue scoot I had to take it completely apart, clean it and grease it, at only 2 years old. So not a "maintenance free" item.

[ramjet]

Aaaargh! Piaggio! 4 pad pins in the 2 rear calipers. First 3 are stiff but come out first time, and the fourth one chews up. Could waste lots more time on it but will probably take caliper off and take to local engineering works who rescued me when 2 of the rear disc/ABS ring allen bolts chewed up. Not using scoot for work over winter so not so crucial. Front pads have lots of life so not even thinking of touching them yet. Will probably leave for next owner!

[Mike H]

2 rear calipers?

[ramjet]

Main rear brake and parking brake calipers, both have 2 pad pins

[Mike H]

I had to refer to my "archive", you're right.

[ramjet]

The offending pad pin has now been removed, and just getting the parts and fluid together to put rear caliper back.(X10 500)

The workshop manual does not say (unbelievably!) which front caliper is linked to rear caliper when operated. Can anyone who has had to refill/bleed rear brake confirm what the procedure is please? Will the corresponding front caliper need to be bled as well? I see from the manual that hidden in the depths somewhere is a brake balance valve with a bleed nipple. Will this need bled or only if disturbed.?  Hopefully I don't need to disturb any ABS workings.

I am using new pads in rear caliper and am cleaning it up and going to use silicone grease on piston sides and copper grease on pad backs and sides and pins. In the parking caliper (cable only so more straightforward) I will clean and grease. The original pads have a fairly narrow pad depth but the new ones appear to be about the same so will probably just replace old ones at the moment.

[Dave Milnes]

You might get away without bleeding the splitter valve as you haven't touched the linked front brake. The rear brake is a straight through feed from the master cylinder.
The way to tell which front brake is the linked is to squeeze the dedicated front lever and with your other hand feel which caliper is moving the pads then you know the other is the linked without squeezing that lever and potentially making bleeding more difficult.
Bleed the rear until there is a little 'feel' in the lever then the front and then the rear again and leave the lever tied 'squeezed' overnight if you aren't entirely happy. It will firm up with use too.

[ramjet]

Thanks Dave. So from what I can gather from forum

The right hand brake lever operates only the front left caliper/disc

The left hand brake lever operates rear caliper/disc and front right caliper/disc

So as I've only removed rear caliper I will need to refit, refill at left front lever reservoir and bleed rear and right front reservoirs!

[ramjet]

Whoops, last line meant bleed rear and front right calipers, not reservoirs!

It should also be obvious when I start looking and removing reservoir lids which level has dropped. And as you say, feeling each set of front pads when trying levers should confirm which side is which. Just don't want to try levers unneccesarily as I've not touched them yet and don't want to have to find and bleed balance valve as well

[Mike H]

The workshop manual does not say (unbelievably!) which front caliper is linked to rear caliper when operated. Can anyone who has had to refill/bleed rear brake confirm what the procedure is please?

On mine (350 ABS/ASR) the right front was the linked front. Which also means the left front is done by the right lever, which again seems weird.

Will the corresponding front caliper need to be bled as well?

If air has got in, yes.

I see from the manual that hidden in the depths somewhere is a brake balance valve with a bleed nipple. Will this need bled or only if disturbed.?  Hopefully I don't need to disturb any ABS workings.

No idea. The ABS gubbins is in the fairing just in front of the dash area, so a screen + front fairing upper off job if you want to look at it.

[ramjet]

Finally got round to filling/bleeding rear brake. I intended to try the reverse bleeding method where you take a syringe full of fresh fluid to bleed nipple and inject until reservoir is filled and air and old fluid is forced out. (A few videos on YouTube show different methods)

However in practice there's always a bit of air in tube from syringe. I tried it anyway after syringing old fluid out of reservoir (front left for rear brake) Took 2 or 3 small syringes, but as I reopened nipple to inject next syringe I could see there was a small amount of bubbles, so some air in system. After filling reservoir I closed the nipple and left last syringe attached (still with small amount of fresh fluid). I then resorted to 'standard' bleeding. As I was on my own, there's no physical way you can reach front left brake lever and rear caliper at the same time! I used a cable tie to apply left brake lever, but left just enough slack to be able to slip it off and on lever again. With brake on I then released the nipple to let air out and closed again.(When opened the still attached syringe would push the plunger out a fraction, which seemed to maintain pressure in system)  Back to the lever and slip cable tie off lever for a few seconds then back on to apply brake. After 3 or 4 of these cycles there was no air coming out so I closed off the nipple firmly and put the reservoir lid back on. Lever was firm and brakes working well. Haven't road tested yet but hopefully OK.

As previously mentioned there is a brake balance valve for the linked brakes. I didn't touch this at all so hopefully don't need to. The valve is situated beside the ABS control box and can be accessed by removing windscreen and the dash panel under windscreen. Another problem to look at now, but that's for a new post!

https://www.x9gallery.co.uk/home/displayimage.php?pid=19360&message_id=031af01d5471ff8e65027b8f15610153&message_icon=info#cpgMessageBlock

Hopefully link shows photo of area under clocks and windscreen/windscreen base panel. Brake balance valve is at right upper side with bleed nipple and yellow paint on bolts

[Dave Milnes]

The balance valve looks similar to the X9 in which case the rear brake bypasses the actual valve passing through a pair of siamesed banjo couplings, only the front brake goes via the valve itself. As such the sprung ball inside should effectively seal off the fluid between the input banjo and the calliper so only the rear needs bleeding if all you disturbed is at the rear.
If you disturb the front linked brake the whole lot needs doing and it can be a pain to get a firm lever.