ABS and ASR light coming on solid.

[Noggin the Nog]

Hi All, I lurve my X10 but, ...........

After a couple of miles the two warning lights have started coming on (solid not flashing). Everything does what it should from start and, when the lights come on, if I stop, switch off, wait a bit & restart, it does the same thing -  OK for a while then both lights come one.

I've checked the sensors, their positioning & the slotted discs. They appear to be OK to the eye but cleaned everything up & put it all back with just over 1mm clearance from the sensors to the discs.

I've noticed that the rear brake can be a bit stiff, so I unbolted the caliper, cleaned it up and checked that the pots were pumping & could be moved back with a little bit of leverage. Not exactly sloppy but not seized.

On the last test run I noticed that the rear brake caliper & disc are still getting pretty warm (I like my linked brakes so use them most often) but the front isn't.

The blasted warning lights came on in the same length of road where they came on before.

If the disc was getting warm enough to warp, could this affect the slotted ring for the ASR/ABS sensor?

Seems odd that all is well for a couple of miles before it starts playing up.

TIA

[ramjet]

I had similar problems but were due to bending ABS ring while trying to persuade reluctant rear wheel to come off, Straightening the ring gently in place using bicycle tyre levers helped, but the lights would come on (Sometimes nearly straight away, but would sometimes take 40 miles to go on)

Not sure what would cause this if you haven't damaged the ring. Unlikely to be a ABS/ASR unit fault as the lights would stay on from start. The parking brake lower caliper might be worth checking as I had some trouble until I adjusted it.

If you do try to remove the shared rear disc/ABS sensor ring bolts please take care as they are small allen heads which strip easily.

Good luck with this

[Noggin the Nog]

"If you do try to remove the shared rear disc/ABS sensor ring bolts please take care as they are small allen heads which strip easily."


Hmm, I hate ALL mushroom headed allen bolts almost as much as I hate the bolts that hold the brake pads to the X10 calipers

Mushroom heads always use a size smaller allen socket than a standard bolt which is bound to cause trouble. I've replaced quite a few on my Moto Guzzi with full sized cheese heads allen bolts where I can.

[chippyzip]

Have a look at my past post " OK, now this- ASR and ABS light constantly on! "  in April last year. I had bent the ABS sensor which resulted in both the ABS and ASR light permanently on. Mike H gave me the idea to check the sensor, but I can remember how difficult getting those bloody hex bolts off that seemed to be made from cheese! If you can get the sensor wheel off, place it on a flat surface and check it's level. New ones from Easyparts http://www.easyparts.nl/  cost 17.50 euro's not including delivery. It's worthwhile getting new bolts as I'm sure by the time you get the old one's off the sensor they'll be buggered!

Graham

[roadster]

Because its intermittent and affects both ABS and ASR the suggestions about sensors and sensor rings do seem to be most likely. Are the wheel bearings OK? If one of the wheels gets sloppy when everything warms up it might put the clearances out. The ASR could also be affected by tyre pressure and possibly even the ABS if the tyre warms up through being soft and then the pressure rises with temperature. You could also check the sensors by comparing the resistance of front and rear although intermittent electrical issues can be very hard to pin down. Incidentally its not unusual for the rear brake to get hotter than the front in normal riding. Rear brakes are often under-specified on scooters because the weight distribution means they get more work than on a motorcycle and they don't get as much cooling air either.

[Noggin the Nog]

Gonna have to check it all again but it'll have to wait 'til Tuesday before I have time.

Just wondering though, calibration requires everything to be working, right? And the lights came on at almost exactly the same point on my test circuit. So, if the calibration is out, how long does it take the system to register the fact? It shouldn't be straight away or you'd not be able to do the initial part of the calibration ........... hmmmmmm

Still not sure why it should be out of calibration but we'll see.

[Mike H]

Two things I remember from the owner's manual and service manual: A. ABS has to be recalibrated to keep track with tyre wear, a change in the relative circumferences of F & R tyres will throw an error; B. the distance between the slotted wheel and the ABS sensor is critical, only a very small margin of error else bad pick-up signal.

[Noggin the Nog]

Another session of dismantling and cleaning, then re-assemble and very careful setting of sensor clearances.

Yay!

I made it all the way around the test route without the warning lights coming on!

Sorted (fingers crossed)

[chippyzip]

via Imgflip Meme Generator

Graham 

[Mike H]

OK!

[Noggin the Nog]

Oh bxggxr! It's back...

Interestingly, I could swear I saw the speedo needle dip just before both lights came on. What sends the signal to the speedo? Or it could be the dreaded corroded earth disease.

[Dave Milnes]

As the speedo dipped it is probably the wheel sensor that also does the speedo as well as the ABS. Not sure if this is front or rear on an X10. There is usually a connector somewhere along the wiring where it plugs into the main loom. It might also be a duff connection across the ABS fuse.

[Noggin the Nog]

Ta. Crazy that it ran for 11 miles (ish) before it came on, and 8-9 miles on the way home. Will check out the fuses tomorrow, weather permitting.

[Mike H]

Yes as Dave said I'm pretty sure one of the ABS rings does for the speedo too.

[Gav]

Could it be the pads are dragging and the light comes on when heat expands them, latterly my ABS light on my Aprilia Futura occassionally flashed on, but if I stopped turned the engine  off and back on it dissapeared.

[Noggin the Nog]

Ok, I've given the job to Arnolds.

If it was just the sensors I'd be prepared to persevere but when I go to operate the (linked) brakes and the lever locks up with no braking effect apparent as well ..... OMG


When I booked it in the guy goes "ah! one of those"

[Mike H]

Oh crud, ABS unit fecked? 

[Noggin the Nog]

Awaiting diagnosis ......

[Mike H]

Pulling the lever and naff all happening is a bit serious, I'm surprised TBH I'd have thought it would most likely fail with all channels open, so fluid circuit still works.

[Noggin the Nog]

That's what it says in the book - you should have normal braking but with no ABS or ASR.

Although the lights came on, fortunately, it didn't do the locked solid lever thing on the way to Arnolds in Burton on Trent.

(btw: technically the full Piaggio dealership license is at Arnolds in Leicester. If necessary they'll take the bike over there in a van)

[Noggin the Nog]

Just having a look round & preparing for the worst. I can't find a brake caliper rebuild kit. Is there one?


Edit: no there isn't. How daft is that.

[Noggin the Nog]

Progress, of sorts. Apparently the calipers have now arrived. Rapid service there, Piaggio.

[Mike H]

Edit: no there isn't. How daft is that.

The cynic in me suggests, because either:
A. amateur DIY mechanics are not allowed to fiddle with brakes
B. the pistons will have rusted solid before the caliper needs new seals

[Noggin the Nog]

Can't argue with either.

btw: I have been told today that parts* have arrived from Piaggio so work can now commence.

*Not sure how many or what bits are in the boxes that have arrived.

[Mike H]

[Noggin the Nog]

Woo Hoo!!. Picking it up on Saturday. All new calipers and an ABS unit, plus a fresh MOT.

From what they said today, they'll be glad to see the back of it as it's been bouncing between Burton & their "official" Piaggio branch in Leicester for weeks.

Despite that, they told me that I'll only be charged for four hours labour and also all the brake pad pins in the new calipers have been removed & refitted with a touch of grease, not superglue

[Mike H]

Thanks for the update. Sounds like a right PITA, glad it didn't happen to me!

[Dave Milnes]

Lets hope it's cured for good. Interesting to see what they thought the fault was, callipers or ABS unit, or did they just throw parts at it until it seemed to go OK?

[Mike H]

"ALL new calipers and an ABS unit", so you could be right! Only the M/C's and hoses are original 

[Noggin the Nog]

Now I have the bike and the actual paperwork, not just whatever info I could glean during phone calls. ....

There are three new calipers and a new ABS sensor.

The calipers were replaced because they were either binding/not working correctly,  or because the pad pins were fubar. (partly due to me, I'm sure, I can't blame them for not spending hours trying to drill pins out, etc) .
And, of course, there are no kits to enable them to be rebuilt/refurbished anyway.

The ABS sensor, with only an intermittent fault, had them scratching their heads & they did consider a complete new ABS unit but were eventually able to determine that the sensor (859792) was the culprit.

Like I said before, the pad pins in the new calipers were all removed & then re-fitted with a dab of grease. This also made them sweat a bit (how long would those calipers have been sitting on the shelf?) so I think I was lucky to get away with four hours labour in total. All rounded off with a fresh MOT.
The ride home was really wet but fun. The brake levers now have much more "feel" in them than they did. Lighter too.

[Mike H]

The calipers were replaced because they were either binding/not working correctly,  or because the pad pins were fubar. (partly due to me, I'm sure, I can't blame them for not spending hours trying to drill pins out, etc) .

Yep fair enough! Makes sense.

The ABS sensor, with only an intermittent fault, had them scratching their heads & they did consider a complete new ABS unit but were eventually able to determine that the sensor (859792) was the culprit.

Again, makes sense. And the dash lights kept trying to say that was the problem.

The lever going hard and the corresponding brake not working was due to seized pistons then. I'm surmizing.

[Noggin the Nog]

Footnote to the above sagas.

Today I decided to do a bit of brake maintenance & all the pins came out exactly as they should.

Hopefully, here endeth the tail.

I could tell you about the " leather" bags I've put on the scoot and the furore it's caused with both scooterists and bikers but it can wait 

[Mike H]

Hmmm!