X9 Owners & Riders Club
December 19, 2018, 03:37:16 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The DONATE button below isn't working since the server move. To donate towards hosting costs please use the one on the web pages.
 
   Home   Help Website Gallery Login Register Donate  
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Problem with immobiliser. Or with something else.  (Read 5637 times)
The Bern
Provisional
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 430



« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2018, 08:50:43 »

Where is this section?

Here ... http://x9ownersclub.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=56.0 ... try the link in the third post down for the most comprehensive list
Logged

Burgundy 01 Honda Silverwing 600  Telford & beyond
LauriHaapala
Member
CBT
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2018, 12:59:57 »

Here ... http://x9ownersclub.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=56.0 ... try the link in the third post down for the most comprehensive list

Thank you.
Logged
LauriHaapala
Member
CBT
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2018, 18:15:27 »

I have a hell of a hangover because of an Eurovision night in local gay bar but I'm trying to write a brief summary:

We checked electrical components and relays looks like ok. I found 8 of them plus starter relay and all of them are regular 12V/30A five-pin relays. Two relays in the front fairing are low beam and high beam relays and they're identical. Two relays in LH upper fairing are 12V/30A as well, one is fan relay and another is "services electromagnetic switch" which relays power to coil, fuel pump and the injector. That seems to be ok because the fuel pump works. Two relays in the lower frame are switches for electro-hydraulic central stand(!). Last pair of relays are in LH rear, between the regulator and one fuse box. One is a engine stop switch which most likely "kills" the engine when stopped. BTW, why that thing is needed when you have that services electromagnetic switch?

But diodes: Like mentioned earlier in this topic, Evo has a nice diode pack which looks like a relay but holds one 2 A diode and one 6 A diode. This 2002 scooter has a pack which holds two 6 A diodes and one 2 A diode. I found it and it looks like this:https://www.motosparepartner.com/it/explodedviews/x9_500_500cc_2001-2002_160/cablaggi_8486 It is the part number 2.

Oh, BEHOLD: that schematic shows two more diode packs in the harness! Could that be correct...

I've found only partial wiring diagrams so I cannot count all needed diodes in this scooter.

One wicked fault in this scooter is that it drains the battery dead in two days even if the ignition is off. There are always diodes in a system where ignition is combined to alternator because 1) as we know the alternator produces alternative current and that must be rectified for the battery and 2) if there's no "one-way-valve" for electric current the alternator grounds itself and drains the battery when engine is not turning. Maybe I am repetitive, but there's a diode bridge, a simple and compact part in alternator in Japanese motorcycles, not single diodes scattered around the wiring harness.

We'll check those two more harness connectors on next Wednesday.

When I connected the leads to the battery I heard buzzing sound from the dash, sound like ABS pumps do when they test themselves. And meters come live for a while. Ignition was off. There's quite low resistance between battery leads, so low that it drains the battery easily.

And, you advanced scooter mechanics, could you take a look at this link for making things sure: Is this manual for 2002 model year 500cc NON-Evo scooter? I'm getting paranoid with this Evo-Non-Evo thing.
 http://www.scootermasters.com/manuals/Piaggio%20X9%20500%20Service%20Station%20Manual%20(2002-ENGLISH-70%20Pages).pdf
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 18:40:21 by LauriHaapala » Logged
Dave Milnes
Administrator
Stunt Rider
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 20387


Fylde Coast


WWW
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2018, 16:00:33 »

The noise from the dash is normal on connecting the battery. The stepper motors get a reset to zero on power on via the digidash which does have a permanent live feed to retain the clock and trip functions. This doesn't cause any battery drains in normal use though. You can try unplugging the regulator input to see if that helps but even if there is a problem this shouldn't prevent the engine from starting.
Have you checked the 30A fuse under the rubber cover on the starter solenoid just to the right of the battery?
The drain on the battery should be no more than 2mA max which is made up pretty much by the immobiliser which does kill the LED after 24 hrs to save more power.
2002 should be pre Evo.
Logged

'04 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - LED's, K&N, twin lights, bleepers...
'68 NSS300 Forza in Crescent Blue
LauriHaapala
Member
CBT
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2018, 17:46:04 »

2002 is pre-Evo but ist that manual for Evo or pre-Evo?

Main fuse is ok, scooter won't crank without it. And I burned it already when I found out that a X9 battery has opposite polarity.
Logged
Dave Milnes
Administrator
Stunt Rider
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 20387


Fylde Coast


WWW
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2018, 20:48:15 »

The title is X9 500 2002 so it is pre Evo.
Opposite battery polarity has been known to fry the ECU if you turn the ignition on. I think now we know the problem. If you spot it before turning the key it does no harm but the ECU is very polarity sensitive.
The only cure now is a new ECU and matching decoder and chip from the master key. Used parts will work but they have to be all from the same bike. Put the new chip into your master key to initially test and start the engine then program the standard key. This saves having to change all the locks as well. If you don't have a master key you will need key set and locks as well from the same donor. You cannot mix ECU, decoder and chip once used as they are locked together for life.
Logged

'04 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - LED's, K&N, twin lights, bleepers...
'68 NSS300 Forza in Crescent Blue
LauriHaapala
Member
CBT
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2018, 06:07:45 »

Hmmm... What I did happened months after the fault appeared. But it is possible that same thing has happened before I came into the picture.
Logged
LauriHaapala
Member
CBT
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2018, 08:04:14 »

...and, this is my motorcycle knowledge, if you connect terminals wrong and tuen the ignition on nothing happens, bike is just dead. After that you notice the main fuse is blown. I have to look at the wiring diagrams once more, but it is wicked if current could go through the system and damage components before any back-up goes active.
Logged
Dave Milnes
Administrator
Stunt Rider
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 20387


Fylde Coast


WWW
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2018, 08:08:25 »

I doubt the diodes are damaged as that is what they are there for to keep polarity and not allow reverse feed. They are designed for just that.
Relays and switches and all things with a motor such as fuel pump and anything lighting will work with polarity either way without damage. The dashes don't like it but aren't critical to the engine starting. If the digidash is displaying mileage and other warning lights, clock etc it will be OK. Apart from the pass through for the brake lights which stops the engine cranking you can disconnect the dash once the engine is started.
If any of the sensors got damaged the ECU lamp would stay lit permanently. It normally goes off after 2 seconds although sometimes will re-light after a while if you don't make an attempt to fire up the engine.
The ECU though is apparently quite sensitive. I seem to remember another member some time ago did similar and fried it. Unfortunately there isn't a test or anything to measure, so apart from doing a thorough part by part elimination until there is nothing left that it can be, then substituting a 'new' part is all you can do.
Any ECU will allow you to attempt to start the motor but give you the correct immobiliser active code as it wouldn't recognise the key. It would also give the flashing LED when turned off which would go a long way to pointing the finger at the current ECU. If a substitute was still dead all the time then it's still possible the problem lies elsewhere.
Logged

'04 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - LED's, K&N, twin lights, bleepers...
'68 NSS300 Forza in Crescent Blue
LauriHaapala
Member
CBT
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2018, 08:19:28 »

I doubt the diodes are damaged as that is what they are there for to keep polarity and not allow reverse feed. They are designed for just that.
Relays and switches and all things with a motor such as fuel pump and anything lighting will work with polarity either way without damage. The dashes don't like it but aren't critical to the engine starting. If the digidash is displaying mileage and other warning lights, clock etc it will be OK. Apart from the pass through for the brake lights which stops the engine cranking you can disconnect the dash once the engine is started.
If any of the sensors got damaged the ECU lamp would stay lit permanently. It normally goes off after 2 seconds although sometimes will re-light after a while if you don't make an attempt to fire up the engine.
The ECU though is apparently quite sensitive. I seem to remember another member some time ago did similar and fried it. Unfortunately there isn't a test or anything to measure, so apart from doing a thorough part by part elimination until there is nothing left that it can be, then substituting a 'new' part is all you can do.
Any ECU will allow you to attempt to start the motor but give you the correct immobiliser active code as it wouldn't recognise the key. It would also give the flashing LED when turned off which would go a long way to pointing the finger at the current ECU. If a substitute was still dead all the time then it's still possible the problem lies elsewhere.

I agree. I've found one diode pack and it, and possible others, are next to check. Just being sure, immo LED is immo LED but is ECU lamp some kind of a "service engine soon" light in dashboard? The scooter isn't near at the moment.
Logged
Dave Milnes
Administrator
Stunt Rider
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 20387


Fylde Coast


WWW
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2018, 15:32:31 »

Assuming the digidash and analogue dash are all connected and powered up properly, when the ignition is off the LED at the top centre of the analogue dash flashes once a second for 24 hours. This indicated the ECU is immobilised. On turning the ignition on, it gives one long flash then should go off to indicate the ECU is disarmed and ready to go.
The LEDs on the digidash are normal warning lamps for oil, lights, indicators and the ECU error warning. Unless there is a total failure of a sensor required to start the engine, the engine should still start, if run badly, with the ECU lamp lit.
If the immobiliser LED isn't lighting at all and not signalling an enabled system on powering on, then the ECU is dead or at least locked out.
Service warnings are a separate function of the display screen and have no effect on running, in fact they are often way out of sync! There are 3, Oil, Belt and Service and all pretty irrelevant.

If you are sure the digi and analogue dashes are functioning, any errors with the immobiliser is displayed as a 'blink code' on the LED. Depending on the sequence and speed of the flashes tells you the fault. No LED at all is indicative of either a dud ECU or no power to it.
Logged

'04 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - LED's, K&N, twin lights, bleepers...
'68 NSS300 Forza in Crescent Blue
LauriHaapala
Member
CBT
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2018, 17:08:20 »

I found out that led has a permanent lead and immobiliser grounds it. Led grounding wire is orange-white and we'll test to ground it tomorrow. There's a purple wire which goes to immobiliser connector and it has voltage when ignition is turned off. IF that wire feeds the immobiliser we could have an expensive fault because it is not the power. Did it take a new immobiliser, ECU and keys to fix dead Immo box?
Logged
unchained
Member
Cafe Racer
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2009


I seem to be collecting X9s!!!!


« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2018, 21:34:20 »

The only way to be sure that the ECU is fried is to try it in another scoot if there are any other Piaggio 500's local to you (doesn't really need to be an X9). You will need to also plug in the decoder but so long as the correct key is placed within a connected key antenna then the ignition can be switched on with its normal key. Hope that makes sense!
The problem with ECUs is the silly price of them and the decoder makes the replacement cost more than the scoot is worth. Most breakers fail to realise that they have to be sold as a full set and on their own the components are scrap they are rarely sold with the red program key either, which may cause problems in the future.
There is a full set for a Beverly 500 for sale on Ebay in Italy for around 200eur which should do the job but not sure how the mapping differs.

Bob
Logged

X9 125cc 51 Reg in red (now sold)
X9 250sl 03 Reg (Given away, it left me in the back of a Micra!!!)
X9 500sl 03 Reg, now in Black
X9 500 Evo 04 in blue
Dave Milnes
Administrator
Stunt Rider
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 20387


Fylde Coast


WWW
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2018, 07:37:33 »

The only parts that can be replaced with new ones individually are the pickup antennae and the decoder. The ECU can only be replaced as a set with decoder and key chip. Once a decoder is programmed it is locked to the ECU for life. The ECU has the actual immobiliser part built in and that is paired with the first master key chip it is used with for life too, which is how it is almost impossible to bypass.
There is a company that claims to be able to reset one to 'as new' condition though. https://www.ebay.ph/usr/valcotrade?_trksid=p2047675.l2559
Logged

'04 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - LED's, K&N, twin lights, bleepers...
'68 NSS300 Forza in Crescent Blue
LauriHaapala
Member
CBT
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2018, 14:01:12 »

Little update:

Last night we found out that CDI and ECU has two different power circuits: First one delivers electrical power when the ignition is off, wire goes through 3A fuse and it continues to CDI and ECU as white-red lead. That wire gives about 12 V to both devices, measured from connector, and so it is ok. Other circuit is electrified when ignition is on, the lead comes via 5 A fuse after it has passed the main relay and the engine stop relay. That lead switces ECU relay as well. ECU relay was dead and we replaced it. Now also "running-circuit" works, it gave about 12 V to white-black leads.

But it won't start and immobiliser LED is still black.

We found out that ECU has ability to switch the fuel pump on and CDI is still able to give first "check-spark" when the ignition is turned on. Immo LED has permanent lead into it and when CDI wants to say something the device actually grounds the LED. I think that white-orange wire in CDI connector is LED grounding wire. It has no electricity at all so grounding it doesn't do the trick.

I disconnected the analogue meters from digital dash. Wire was badly bent but not grounding. And I measured voltage from digidash connector, there are 6 wires to analogue dash.

No voltage when the ignition is turned off.

IF the immo LED has permanent lead AND decoder only grounds it should at least one wire be electrified?

I don't want to connect power to meters with jump cables but without knowledge about correct LED wire.

And if CDI/decoder gives spark and ECU switches things like fuel pump on are they fried?

Next thing to check could be digidash.
Logged
Dave Milnes
Administrator
Stunt Rider
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 20387


Fylde Coast


WWW
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2018, 16:06:23 »

http://x9ownersclub.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=23630.0

Does this help with the pin outs to the digidash?
Logged

'04 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - LED's, K&N, twin lights, bleepers...
'68 NSS300 Forza in Crescent Blue
LauriHaapala
Member
CBT
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2018, 16:18:17 »

http://x9ownersclub.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=23630.0

Does this help with the pin outs to the digidash?

Yes!  thank you.
Logged
LauriHaapala
Member
CBT
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2018, 20:18:04 »

Just a quick question but is CDI/Immo/ECU kit similar in X9 500 and in X9 Evo?
Logged
unchained
Member
Cafe Racer
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2009


I seem to be collecting X9s!!!!


« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2018, 20:45:23 »

They are interchangeable between all 500s but the mapping is slightly different.
The standard evo mapping runs the engine slightly leaner to warm it up quicker and help with the overfuellling that occurred with the original SL mapping and thermostat. This was upgraded again to help with European emission requirements. As far as I know, both engines will run fine with any of the mappings.

Bob
Logged

X9 125cc 51 Reg in red (now sold)
X9 250sl 03 Reg (Given away, it left me in the back of a Micra!!!)
X9 500sl 03 Reg, now in Black
X9 500 Evo 04 in blue
LauriHaapala
Member
CBT
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2018, 09:22:37 »

Has anyone spare components for loan/sale? We are interested about analog and digital dashes.
Logged
Dave Milnes
Administrator
Stunt Rider
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 20387


Fylde Coast


WWW
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2018, 13:12:19 »

Ebay is best bet, but parts that are getting rare or even discontinued are fetching a premium from the breakers.
Logged

'04 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - LED's, K&N, twin lights, bleepers...
'68 NSS300 Forza in Crescent Blue
LauriHaapala
Member
CBT
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2018, 09:16:16 »

http://x9ownersclub.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=23630.0

Does this help with the pin outs to the digidash?

So if I got this right pin 4 is a wire which goes through digital dash to decoder and decoder grounds that wire when LED flashes. And pin 30 is the feed to LED to analog dash through the digidash.

Could the LED have smaller voltage than the whole system?
Logged
Dave Milnes
Administrator
Stunt Rider
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 20387


Fylde Coast


WWW
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2018, 12:28:27 »

The LED will have a much lower voltage but whether it's fed a lower voltage all the way from the decoder or just has a limiting resistor somewhere along the feed I don't know.
My X9 will start without the digidash even being connected, it appears apart from the brake light failure warning pass through on some models it has no part in the function of the bike itself. Try starting with the dashes both removed and if your bike doesn't have a brake light failure warning feature it will still crank over.
Is it possible on your bike the LED has been fried by someone previously feeding it a direct 12volts or just failed through age?
Logged

'04 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - LED's, K&N, twin lights, bleepers...
'68 NSS300 Forza in Crescent Blue
LauriHaapala
Member
CBT
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2018, 07:34:56 »

I cut pin number 4 wire (blue) and we grounded it, then we connected pin 2 wire (bianco) straight to plus pole. And LED woke up! I checked other connections also and analog dash works well.

So, it is true that decoder grounds, not feeds, the LED in Master-engined immobiliser systems also.

But, the digidash gets current only when ignition is on. Every pin is mute when the ignition is off. That's faulty situation, because digidash should have permanent feed from the battery via 3 A fuse because that permanent current feeds the immo LED and the decoder grounds it always when the decoder has something to say. I grounded the LED wire from decoder pin but it didn't work because there was not current behind the LED.

Same circuit feeds permanent live to decoder and ECU, it comes via bianco-rosso wires to both devices. That same current should be fed to the digidash, to pin 25 and via rosso-nero wire if I'm right.

We'll be unwrapping the wiring harness on Easter.
Logged
Dave Milnes
Administrator
Stunt Rider
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 20387


Fylde Coast


WWW
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2018, 07:46:52 »

The digidash should have a live feed to keep the clock running if nothing else.
The whole bike works on grounding. The fuel pump, injector and coil all have a constant +ve feed and to control speed and timing the negative side goes directly to the ECU, nothing appears to use live switching outside of the auxiliary circuits like lights etc.
So now you have proven the LED works if you can rig a bypass +ve you should get the immobiliser flashing LED and then with the ignition on, either an immobiliser release or the fault code flash.
Logged

'04 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - LED's, K&N, twin lights, bleepers...
'68 NSS300 Forza in Crescent Blue
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!