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Author Topic: New x8 owner few issues  (Read 47925 times)
Mike H
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« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2016, 22:32:19 »

A-ha! 

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sutty86
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« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2016, 19:40:43 »

So the saga continues,
Managed to get to work yesterday 18miles using back roads, didn't fancy going on dual carriageway with the scooter hunting around 49mph(GPS)

So scooter was fine if I wouldn't open the throttle when , got to work, parked up.
14 hour shift (also bad day)
Went to start her up to warm up and again, similar problem, I can hear the start motor but engine not turning over, no spark or compression.
Battery is good also tried jump starting ,
All lights work etc.

Was going to call rac have basic cover but with the late time my last train home was due , so left the bike at work.

So anyone had issues with starter motor or the Bendix , I think possibly the Bendix has been knocked out of position whilst riding to work.
Was going to order a new one today but really need to see what's going on.

Also got seafoam today in post as I think the carb may need cleaning but I'm worried about doing it myself.
Guy offered to do it locally for £70 .(too much)

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sutty86
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« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2016, 22:44:14 »

Just got back from attempting to sort my scooter out after thinking it was the Bendix,

Well I'm back to square one,
Pulled the brand new variator pulley out which is days old, totally shredded again in the middle along with a brand new outer washer which is days old too.

Exact same reason before, what am i doing wrong am i torquing too hard (impact wrench)
But previous seller didn't have said wrench, and had exact same problem.
Splines still look good .
Pulling my hair out.








Looks like I'm going to have to buy another pulley and washer.

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Dave Milnes
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« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2016, 09:25:15 »

All I can suggest is to make sure you have the correct spacers on the crank and between the pulley halves and behind the nut and fit the complete assembly without the belt so you can see where on the shaft the pulley sits and that the nut is correctly pressing on the outer half.
Then refit the outer half with the clutch and belt and make sure you get the outer half in the same place and not spaced further out. If it won't go on as far, then you need more slack in the belt so it is completely slack between the front pulley halves. Also the washer behind the nut should be a lock washer, usually a concave spring which must go on domed side to the nut so it squashes it flat.
Check the workshop manual for position of washers and spacers around the variator. I am not familiar with the 125/250 but the 500 has a radius spacer on the shaft first then the inner half with ramp plate and rollers the inner tube slides inside this, then there is a thick washer before the outer fixed half pulley then two more washers and the nut. When you torque the nut the whole assembly is squeezed together not just the outer pulley onto the splines. The 125 should be similar I would have thought?
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2004 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - 2016 Maxsym 600i Sport
Anderton 2004, Pen-y-cae 2005, Matlock 2006, Hay on Wye 2007, Minehead 2008, St Florence 2010, Newent 2011, North Kyme 2012, Betsw-y-coed 2013, Hardraw 2014, Parkend 2015, Whitby 2016, Mundesley 2017, Derby 2018, Telford 2019, Loch Doon 2020, Cumbria 2021.
The Bern
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« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2016, 10:03:39 »

Exact same reason before, what am i doing wrong am i torquing too hard (impact wrench)
But previous seller didn't have said wrench, and had exact same problem.
Splines still look good .
Pulling my hair out

At a guess I would say that a) you have found you rattle & b) the nut was not replaced with a new item, or if using s/h item it was not thread locked, if neither of those options apply then either  the nut was under torqued, or the there is an error in the assembly method.
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Virago 535
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sutty86
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« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2016, 11:59:40 »

At a guess I would say that a) you have found you rattle & b) the nut was not replaced with a new item, or if using s/h item it was not thread locked, if neither of those options apply then either  the nut was under torqued, or the there is an error in the assembly method.
All washers were new ,
I'm sure I did everything correctly.
Variator plate, variator, bush , washer sits in recess of new pulley,washer again, castle washer and new beville washer nut.
Torqued and no play in the system
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The Bern
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« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2016, 12:22:53 »

Have a look at this bud, not identicle to yours but very close .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiEA9SXhtng
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Virago 535
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sutty86
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« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2016, 14:19:18 »

Have a look at this bud, not identicle to yours but very close .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiEA9SXhtng

Exact video I followed hahaha fantastic videos btw they do.
Just spoken to a piaggio dealer told me possibly the shaft is bent hence not spinning true and basically said I may need a new engine not worth fixing ,
Anyone know how to check so I can hopefully void this
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Dave Milnes
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« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2016, 16:12:30 »

That is a possibility especially when using a manual torque wrench as the load is on an unsupported shaft. Using a rattle gun doesn't apply any sideways force although I didn't spot any flex in the video, you don't know what the previous owner did.
The official locking tool for the 500 braces the shaft at two places against the casing but the ones for the smaller models just lock from turning as torque is higher.
You can't start the engine without an outer pulley fitted so running it and observing the shaft or pulley for wobble isn't possible.
It would seem the nut should always be replaced by a new one as it has a crush washer built in and thread lock applied but I still find it hard to understand how a loose nut shreds the splines as the splines are supposed to be man enough to transfer all the power. The Honda NC drive sprocket floats on the splined shaft so there is no need to lock the splined pulley purely to make it strong enough, you are only torquing it on a scooter because the inner half floats for gearing and you need the outer half to stay put. This has me baffled.
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2004 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - 2016 Maxsym 600i Sport
Anderton 2004, Pen-y-cae 2005, Matlock 2006, Hay on Wye 2007, Minehead 2008, St Florence 2010, Newent 2011, North Kyme 2012, Betsw-y-coed 2013, Hardraw 2014, Parkend 2015, Whitby 2016, Mundesley 2017, Derby 2018, Telford 2019, Loch Doon 2020, Cumbria 2021.
Mike H
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« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2016, 16:26:27 »

Check the workshop manual for position of washers and spacers around the variator.

Damage to washer looks identical, something is definitely going on, I did wonder whether any bits are missing from previously. (?)

I would want to see an exploded diagram of all parts and identify each one and make sure I've actually got it.

.
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sutty86
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« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2016, 16:43:25 »

Damage to washer looks identical, something is definitely going on, I did wonder whether any bits are missing from previously. (?)

I would want to see an exploded diagram of all parts and identify each one and make sure I've actually got it.

.
I'm going to buy everything from fowler's , exact, no re using any old stuff.
So new variator,plate,slides,bush, washers pulley and nuts and fingers crossed it works.
I'm going to examine spline later on as I'm at work at the minute and it's sat there
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sutty86
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« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2016, 16:52:32 »

http://oem-parts.hu/en/parts/piaggio/x8-125/x8-125-potenziato-2005-2006/engine-driving-pulley
Did everything similar apart from stuck washer behind pulley in between belt as there is a recess and was told
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sutty86
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« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2016, 18:44:59 »

Checked shaft it's larger by a mm or two at the front and back ___------------___
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Mike H
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« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2016, 23:04:22 »

Are you saying tops of the splines are bitten off in between? Lower than they should be?


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sutty86
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« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2016, 00:57:25 »

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Mike H
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« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2016, 11:54:49 »

Ah right so I was right I guessed that when the belt broke it jammed the variator, if only briefly, but enough to rip the splines off including the shaft.

That is well chewed, in fact "FUBAR"  (aka, scrap)

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sutty86
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« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2016, 13:41:21 »


FML
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sutty86
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« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2016, 16:14:07 »


Possible good news
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Dave Milnes
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« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2016, 16:46:28 »

The splines don't have to be consistent. The inner ramp plate is splined to the shaft then the inner pulley half slides on that spacer tube so the splines in the middle part are not doing anything, then the outer pulley is splined so drive from the shaft is sent via the splines both to the ramp plate and the outer pulley half.
All I can think is that if the nut comes loose, the outer pulley gets pushed off the splines so they nibble away at the inner end of the alloy splines in the outer pulley until there is none left.

I wonder if in this case because you initially torqued the nut against the belt that after correcting the belt slack and re torquing the nut because it had already been 'flattened' it was effectively a used nut, and that if you had used another new nut the thing wouldn't have come loose. Try another used outer pulley and brand new nut and if it does it again throw it in the canal!
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2004 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - 2016 Maxsym 600i Sport
Anderton 2004, Pen-y-cae 2005, Matlock 2006, Hay on Wye 2007, Minehead 2008, St Florence 2010, Newent 2011, North Kyme 2012, Betsw-y-coed 2013, Hardraw 2014, Parkend 2015, Whitby 2016, Mundesley 2017, Derby 2018, Telford 2019, Loch Doon 2020, Cumbria 2021.
russtygid
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« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2016, 17:13:50 »

I think that Dave's advice on thickness and order of spacers, washers and bush remains the basis of the problem. Torque and nut will only affect reliability of the assembly. the position of the bits remain the same with finger tightness. Wrong positioning will cause mis alignment with the clutch and rear pulley. even a slight mis alignment may be causing problems.
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sutty86
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« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2016, 18:10:14 »

The splines don't have to be consistent. The inner ramp plate is splined to the shaft then the inner pulley half slides on that spacer tube so the splines in the middle part are not doing anything, then the outer pulley is splined so drive from the shaft is sent via the splines both to the ramp plate and the outer pulley half.
All I can think is that if the nut comes loose, the outer pulley gets pushed off the splines so they nibble away at the inner end of the alloy splines in the outer pulley until there is none left.

I wonder if in this case because you initially torqued the nut against the belt that after correcting the belt slack and re torquing the nut because it had already been 'flattened' it was effectively a used nut, and that if you had used another new nut the thing wouldn't have come loose. Try another used outer pulley and brand new nut and if it does it again throw it in the canal!
Used pulleys are hard to come by , think you can get a brand new one for twenty on eBay again,
One thing which is bugging me is on the exploded diagram or my scooter there is no rear washer behind the pulley, but every video and other text I've read mention it (the pulley as a recess for a washer.
I may just go off what the exploded diagrams shows and torque it , will a strap wrench do for holding the variator
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roadster
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« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2016, 08:57:49 »

I would be inclined to assemble and tighten the whole thing without the belt and rollers. the check statically that the engine turns easily in the normal direction of rotation and that the outer pulley half is completely solid on the crankshaft and fully engaged on the outer part of the spline. Also check that the inner pulley moves freely in and out and that the ramp plate is also fully engaged and clamped on the crankshaft splines. Then start the engine and check that everything is running true when revving up. Finally check everything statically again including end float of the crank. This should verify that the geometry is all OK including the length of the inner spacer and any washers in the clamped stack.
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Dave Milnes
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« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2016, 11:47:02 »

Without the rollers the inner pulley won't move but if you fitted the rollers once they had spun out and pushed the pulley inwards as revs dropped they would all be loose in the channels and may not like being shook around unloaded. They need the belt under tension to push the pulley back keeping the rollers nipped.
You could just fit the inner ramp plate tube washers and outer pulley as these are the parts that are squeezed by the torqued nut, the inner pulley simply floats on the tube, only driven by the three notches with sliders from the ramp plate.
With the need for a new nut each time, although doing this will prove the assembly it also uses up another nut but you should be able to detect any wobble.
A strap wrench is what can bend the shaft as there is no support for the shaft so the application of torque can bend it although some owners use these, and some just wedge the pulley with a bit of the old broken belt and they get away with it. The toothed connection to the starter ring braces the pulley from sideways movement as long as you do the leverage vertically (with the torque wrench handle horizontal).
I would have thought the bend would need to be quite severe to shake the torqued assembly loose and grind away the splines as well.
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2004 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - 2016 Maxsym 600i Sport
Anderton 2004, Pen-y-cae 2005, Matlock 2006, Hay on Wye 2007, Minehead 2008, St Florence 2010, Newent 2011, North Kyme 2012, Betsw-y-coed 2013, Hardraw 2014, Parkend 2015, Whitby 2016, Mundesley 2017, Derby 2018, Telford 2019, Loch Doon 2020, Cumbria 2021.
Mike H
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« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2016, 12:59:12 »

Never seen a splined shaft like that before. Genuinely thought it was damaged.
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sutty86
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« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2016, 21:26:26 »

Never seen a splined shaft like that before. Genuinely thought it was damaged.

A Vespa owner mentioned it to me it's totally normal.
Buying all new is costly.
On the schematics on fowler's and other company's there is no washer behind the half pulley like I have seen everywhere else maybe that's were I went wrong but it's a minor as in mm
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