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Author Topic: starter relay (X9 500 Evo)  (Read 12819 times)
poldark
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« on: March 30, 2014, 14:03:36 »

My B/band is down so having to post using Blackberry, I can't search easily so would appreciate any EBay or other supplier links for a new (brown) relay.

Mine is playing up because of previous battery leakage due to the overflow tubing coming unattached.

I had a battery starting issue yesterday and as I put in the new one I'd already bought I must have dislodged or upset it.

Took it out and cleaned as best I could but really need a new one.
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Mottza
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« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2014, 14:47:19 »

I think you can get these from Halfords. 
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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2014, 18:18:04 »

The starter relay on a 500 is not usually affected by battery acid as it's quite a robust heavy unit. It's not brown in colour either but black with a green top.
The brown relay to the left of the battery (as you look at it) is the centre stand relay, the starter relay is tucked away to the right of the battery (follow the +ve red lead) and is a Suttons, Fowlers, Easyparts part only. It's the same as used on the 250SL but the brown centre stand relay (left as you look at it) is the same as a starter relay for a 125 and is a standard 80A relay which may be found at Halfords.
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2004 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - 2016 Maxsym 600i Sport
Anderton 2004, Pen-y-cae 2005, Matlock 2006, Hay on Wye 2007, Minehead 2008, St Florence 2010, Newent 2011, North Kyme 2012, Betsw-y-coed 2013, Hardraw 2014, Parkend 2015, Whitby 2016, Mundesley 2017, Derby 2018, Telford 2019, Loch Doon 2020.
poldark
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2014, 19:17:10 »

Thanks Dave, that's more confusing now as I'd thought the corroded brown relay was the cause of today's non-start.

After removing and cleaning, which entailed battery removal it started. But clearly I've managed to do something else that's "fixed" it.

I did move the black relay (with 30A fuse) during this, so perhaps there was a dodgy connection there?

The symptom was it was turning over with strong battery but just wouldn't fire. I checked the plug and all OK.  Any thoughts of common cause, when it did this the yellow ECU light was initially going out, but would illuminate as soon as I pulled the brake lever or twisted the throttle in preperation to start.

Now it's starting this warning light is staying off as it shoud.

Would love to know what to work on should/when it happen again.

Cheers
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« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2014, 10:29:25 »

All the bikes circuits take a feed from the multi plug on top of the starter relay so any slight bad connection there could have an effect on several circuits, some may then cause incorrect readings from such as the temp sensor, which would then light the ECU lamp.
A dud connection to the battery/relay could also cause the regulator to not properly limit the voltage to below 14.6 volts which again would light the warning lamp.
I would remove both side painted panels to get behind the rear lights and have a good clean and grease of all the connections to the relays, hidden fuses and make sure the crimped ends on the battery leads are actually tight and making a good connection.
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2004 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - 2016 Maxsym 600i Sport
Anderton 2004, Pen-y-cae 2005, Matlock 2006, Hay on Wye 2007, Minehead 2008, St Florence 2010, Newent 2011, North Kyme 2012, Betsw-y-coed 2013, Hardraw 2014, Parkend 2015, Whitby 2016, Mundesley 2017, Derby 2018, Telford 2019, Loch Doon 2020.
poldark
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« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2014, 21:13:51 »

Just waiting to get hold of a new l.h. rear indicator, at which point I'll update the l.h. rear panel and check/clean all those connectors.

Can I ask what the symptoms would be of a poor starter relay, I was thinking of splashing out to replace it, but it'd just be a waste of my hard-earned if what I had happen couldn't have been that.

Given I had the starter turning over and it was an ECU error stopping it firing, can I be sure it's not that relay but as you say likely to be either poor connections or other relay issues?
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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2014, 10:11:46 »

Not normally a common problem on 500's like they can be on 125's.
The only time they tend to give problems is if you keep trying to start with a flat battery and get them 'trembling' which can burn the contacts if you keep trying.
They seem fairly robust, I've never had any problems.
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2004 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - 2016 Maxsym 600i Sport
Anderton 2004, Pen-y-cae 2005, Matlock 2006, Hay on Wye 2007, Minehead 2008, St Florence 2010, Newent 2011, North Kyme 2012, Betsw-y-coed 2013, Hardraw 2014, Parkend 2015, Whitby 2016, Mundesley 2017, Derby 2018, Telford 2019, Loch Doon 2020.
poldark
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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2014, 15:20:54 »

So had a repeat of starting trouble today, after it'd been left for a few days, although worked fine all last week.

So took of l.h. rear panel and poked about (about the limit of my electickery skills), I can't find my electrical grease so just removed cleaned and replaced the two relays, checked the 4 hidden fuses, then  spotted the 70A stand fuse seemed blown.

Difficult to tell through the brown plastic, but also the black connector has been badly damaged by the battery acid leak.  Ended up stripping back and by-passing the fuse, no idea if this has any relevance to non-starting.

But still no joy, same symptoms, 12.5V at battery, digidash yellow ECU warning light initially goes out as it should, but without touching anything it re-lights after about 5 seconds.

Checked the starter relay and one pin live and the other goes to 12.5V when turning over, so I think that says relay working OK.  Cleaned as best I could the top connector with 30A , no obvious issue I could see.

Having tried starting for so long it dip to 11V now, so left it charging.

Any advice welcome?
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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2014, 18:10:31 »

Doesn't sound like the starter solenoid at fault.
Have a look at this thread... http://www.x9ownersclub.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=20897.0
Check out the fuses and relays which have any bearing on engine running. If the motor is turning over but not firing it has to be something other than the starter solenoid.
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Anderton 2004, Pen-y-cae 2005, Matlock 2006, Hay on Wye 2007, Minehead 2008, St Florence 2010, Newent 2011, North Kyme 2012, Betsw-y-coed 2013, Hardraw 2014, Parkend 2015, Whitby 2016, Mundesley 2017, Derby 2018, Telford 2019, Loch Doon 2020.
poldark
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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2014, 18:34:06 »

I'm wondering now, having had a walk and a think, if it's not an immobiliser/aerial/key issue.

Reason is, after checking, I can hear a continuous high pitch noise/crackle from behind the analogue dials (is that where the aerial sits?) after the normal start-up noises - or is that normal?

Or are the symptoms of that different, it is still turning over just not firing, would it do that if the key isn't being sensed.  I won't be best pleased if it turns out to be that, as there's a £1500 Piaggio dealer bill from Dec 2011 for new ECU & Aerial.

Not sure what I'd be able to do if I can get to the aerial, guess it could be dodgy cabling?  How do I access the aerial, is it behind the headlights?
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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2014, 18:38:45 »

The led flashes would confirm if that's the case.
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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2014, 18:55:53 »

The dash does keep chuffing away occasionally if the ignition is left turned on.
If the immobiliser LED is going out and staying out then it isn't that either.
My bet is it's a power supply problem to either the fuel pump or coil. Especially as it stalled after speed bumps. The immobiliser would not be effected by such things.
The only thing that's slightly odd is the ECU LED behaviour as normally it comes on for a few seconds.
I've just checked what happens on mine, and on turning the ignition on, it lights for two seconds then goes out and stays out even if you don't start the engine. If you eventually fire it up, it doesn't light again and remains out. If you turn on and start immediately it goes off about 2 seconds after the engine fires. Nothing will make it come on again.
When you turn on the ignition the fuel pump primes for one second and then silence. When you turn the ignition off there is a whirring ticking sound from the throttle body as the TPS resets.
If your ECU LED lights when you turn the throttle then maybe there is a problem with the connections to the throttle or with the stepper motors.
If the ECU cannot read the throttle position it may not be firing the ignition or squirting fuel, hence no start.
The loom flexes to these connectors as the engine moves so a speed bump could be tugging at them a bit causing a bad connection.
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Anderton 2004, Pen-y-cae 2005, Matlock 2006, Hay on Wye 2007, Minehead 2008, St Florence 2010, Newent 2011, North Kyme 2012, Betsw-y-coed 2013, Hardraw 2014, Parkend 2015, Whitby 2016, Mundesley 2017, Derby 2018, Telford 2019, Loch Doon 2020.
poldark
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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2014, 19:21:02 »

Thanks for checking yours Dave.

OK so not the keys as the immobiliser red light stays off, positive news to me.

But as you say the ECU LED should go out and stay out.  Mine is certainly re-lighting after about 3 seconds, without touching anything or attempting start.  I've gotta think that's indicating some sort of failure.

I did read your fuse/relay summary and although I'd visually checked the four next to the battery (l.h. side) I thought I'd try switching the two 5A ones around (I don't have any spares), went out and found I have a 7.5A & 5A (alongside the 3A & 10A).  I swapped them and rather strangely the ECU LED didn't re-light, although the bugger still didn't start.  Tried again and the ECU LED did then re-light - argh!

Think I'll buy a batch of new fuses (& contact grease) tomorrow and swap out the lot.

Good idea about the loom flex/connections, whereabouts on the bike should I be checking the fuel pump & TPS?
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« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2014, 07:28:38 »

To check the wiring to anywhere on the engine itself you need access to the top of the block, around the main engine mounting bracket as all the connections are within a few inches of each other where the loom crosses the bike before running over the air filter to the rear.
The easy way is tunnel top and LH footboard removal but it's tight, and to really see properly the seat tub needs removing which is a major job as it means the battery, mudguard and upper subframes need removing. There are four identical plugs on the engine loom only different colours. One is TPS, one air pressure, one injector and the final one is where the TDC sensor plugs in. The cable from the TDC sensor is far too long and is often looped around the injector so is the prime candidate for being damaged but all the plugs are of the spring wire locking snap connectors so unless they have been given a whack, both damp and coming loose are unlikely. There is also the temp sensor but that wouldn't stop the engine starting I doubt.
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poldark
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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2014, 15:42:39 »

Well another frustrating few hours with no joy.

I've changed all the fuses out at the rear (hidden & under-seat) also for the heck of it both the 58002R 30A 5-pin relays (thanks to Halfords).  Copious contact cleaner on every connection I can find and check.  Tunnel top is off and the under-seat access panel helped me get to a few connectors, plus I stripped down the anti-tilt mechanism, bit of a distraction really but at least I know how it works now.

Had to spend some time on the sidestand switch, as it wasn't consistently working, seemed a bit loose but sorted now.  This was a side issue (excuse the pun) as it has it's own warning light.

Exactly the same status, ECU yellow fault light re-lights after 3 secs at switch-on.  I'm now not bothering trying to start if the light comes on, as it just doesn't work and merely drains the battery (and gets tedious & frustrating).

I did swap the spark plug, just in case the fault light is not relevant but can't really see it.  But it struck me it was worth a go as the actual issue is it won't fire, even though it turns over enthusiastically.

One of JT's ex-mechanics now works at Herts Bikes, so I may try stopping by to discuss the issue but at the moment I can't easily get the bike to them.

I'm getting a growing sense it'll turn out to be some silly daft thing, sure looks like the ECU is intentionally stopping the bike starting, based on unwanted sensor/continuity issue, rather than a mechanical issue, but what do I know!

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« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2014, 09:35:30 »

TDC sensor failure then.
Do you get the TPS motor sound from the manifold when you turn the ignition off? If so then the connection to the throttle position controller must be OK.
As the ECU only takes sensor input from throttle position, water temp and air inlet pressure, everything else is hard mapped, only the TDC sensor can really stop an engine starting and has a distinct work/fail and nothing in between aspect.
Someone else a while ago had a similar issue. I don't think the part is particularly costly though. Bit of a beggar to get at though!
I don't think any problems with the fuel pump or coil will light the ECU warning and the problem with faults there is the only way to trouble shoot them is by substitution.
Having said that I have had mine switched on with the fuel pump disconnected and the ECU lamp stayed off, and when I tried starting it with the coil LT disconnected there was no warning light either.
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2014, 08:02:35 »

Any chance Dave that you have a suitable photo that shows where the TDC sensor is located & looks like?

I'm (clearly) out of my depth, so just called in some professional help (ex-JT mechanic called John, now works at Herts Bikes), but they can't look at it for another week or so.  So I may take one more go, before they come and trailer it away.
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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2014, 11:50:37 »

It's on top of the cylinder head on the RH side above where the cam chain gear is on the end of the cam.
It's a 1" dia black plastic 'top hat' attached with 2 small screws and the cable is shiny black PVC covered. The cable loops over the engine to the point on the main loom where the tappings for the TPS, injector and temp sensor are, and plugs in to the loom using a similar wire spring clip type connector.

On this pic see the silver cross head screw in the bracket on the upper main frame tube by the upper cam cover bolt, it's behind that bracket! I don't have a picture showing it specifically as it's always hidden behind something.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 12:00:48 by Dave Milnes » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2014, 13:01:08 »

Can I check is it No. 16 in this schematic - Phase/revolution sensor (6389915)?

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« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2014, 19:18:58 »

That's it.
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2014, 15:39:41 »

Well it is fixed, turned out to be a wiring/loom issue near the starter relay.

To be honest not sure precisely what it was, so a little nervous it may recur, but in all the checking I realised I hadn't yet removed the rear r.h. panel.  So did this and it made accessing the loom/starter relay far easier.  

The main wiring running across the top of the battery seemed overly twisted above the starter relay, so I unravelled it, also cable tied the feed from under the r.h. panel, that runs into the relay as wasn't  properly supported.  Also I'd used some contact cleaner on the rear of the 4 fuse box.

I then checked and the ECU fault light stayed off, checked it the following day, then reassembled the plastics checking as I went and all was fine.

Test rode today and specifically went over a run of speed humps and no problem, in fact it seems to be running better (could be my imagination and relief) the tickover is spot-on at 1500 and had been running high at 1700.

Just need to run it over the next few weeks and get confidence it'll run OK for the Bash weekend.

Thanks for the guidance and advice Dave.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 17:28:10 by poldark » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2014, 16:44:30 »

I bet one of the wires feeds across to the 4 fuses and if one was making poor contact, there may have been no power to the ECU or fuel pump, or something to generate an ECU error fault.
It had to be a problem effected by vibration or impact for the speed bumps to have any effect.
You can't have too many cable ties!!
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2004 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - 2016 Maxsym 600i Sport
Anderton 2004, Pen-y-cae 2005, Matlock 2006, Hay on Wye 2007, Minehead 2008, St Florence 2010, Newent 2011, North Kyme 2012, Betsw-y-coed 2013, Hardraw 2014, Parkend 2015, Whitby 2016, Mundesley 2017, Derby 2018, Telford 2019, Loch Doon 2020.
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