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Author Topic: Hinge in the middle?  (Read 8126 times)
Kirriepete
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« on: May 31, 2013, 10:54:31 »

Righto, got the tyre pressures more or less sorted (helps to not have a leaky valve seat on the front), so the handling has improved a bit.  Got the rear shock up to number 2 on the adjusters (eventually, the 'zorst side one was well seized!), so it does feel a wee bit firmer and more in control, but ....

OK, so I know these little scoots won't handle as surefooted as my bigger bike, but should the  X8 feel like it's got a hinge in the middle?  Symptoms:

Opening the throttle when moving it gives a small lurch to the right, closing the throttle lurches left.  It's only just noticeable, but having 38 36 (honest officer!) years under my belt I kinda notice these things.

Pushing the bike backwards and putting on the rear brake it lifts (expected) and lurches to the nearside (left sitting on the bike) - shurely shome mishtake?

Looking at the X8 400 workshop manual suggests everything at the back hangs from one big spindle, could this be (a) in need of adjusting, (b) a bit loose or (c) fecked?

I await the verdict of the assembled intelligentsia ....
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Dave Milnes
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« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2013, 11:40:26 »

That shouldn't happen. Could be wear in the engine mounts, 125 have a notoriously pathetic lifespan and woefully under engineered yet overly complex design of mounting compared to a 400/500.
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2004 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - 2016 Maxsym 600i Sport
Anderton 2004, Pen-y-cae 2005, Matlock 2006, Hay on Wye 2007, Minehead 2008, St Florence 2010, Newent 2011, North Kyme 2012, Betsw-y-coed 2013, Hardraw 2014, Parkend 2015, Whitby 2016, Mundesley 2017, Derby 2018, Telford 2019, Loch Doon 2020, Cumbria 2021.
Kirriepete
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« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2013, 16:05:57 »

Thanks for that Dave, looks like my suspicions are being confirmed.  Also looks like I'm gonna be ripping some plastic off to get a good look at these under-engineered, overly complex mounts and see whether all my skills as a supreme bodger can make them a wee bitty more stable.

Cable ties and gaffa tape anyone?
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Dave Milnes
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« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2013, 22:11:19 »

There is a big silent-bloc mount at one side only and if this gets soft the engine steers like a rudder.
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2004 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - 2016 Maxsym 600i Sport
Anderton 2004, Pen-y-cae 2005, Matlock 2006, Hay on Wye 2007, Minehead 2008, St Florence 2010, Newent 2011, North Kyme 2012, Betsw-y-coed 2013, Hardraw 2014, Parkend 2015, Whitby 2016, Mundesley 2017, Derby 2018, Telford 2019, Loch Doon 2020, Cumbria 2021.
Kirriepete
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2013, 07:42:04 »

Cheers mate - I've had a peek underneath at the mounts, underneath 8 years of crud it looks like some weirdly complex parallelogram arrangement with more spindles and bushes than a Honda Pro-Link setup (don't ask!).

Got a Haynes book of random numbers and guesses coming soon, so I'll be taking a stab at pulling the whole thing apart then and see what's what.

Never know, I might do my usual and take a whole heap of photos (useful for stripdowns anyway) and then write it up for reference - wouldn't be the first time!

First things first - get the c*r*v*n hooked up and disappear up North for a few days, forgetting about all things 2 wheeled.
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joyce
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2013, 08:33:21 »

Photos and 'how to' info are always welcome on the forum.

Enjoy your holiday.
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Kirriepete
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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2013, 20:29:28 »

There is a big silent-bloc mount at one side only and if this gets soft the engine steers like a rudder.

This the silent-bloc wotsit you mean?



On the wheels with no other pressure:



On the centrestand and also when reversed with the back brake on:



The rest of the pivots down there feel solid enough, no obvious play in anything, so ..... ?  If that's all that needs sorted I'm laughing, or am I being a bit overly optimistic?
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Dave Milnes
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« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2013, 20:33:44 »

Yes it should retain it's centring at all times, where as in the lower picture it's clearly gone rather sad!
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2004 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - 2016 Maxsym 600i Sport
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Kirriepete
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« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2013, 20:46:14 »

Blimey Dave, do you live here permanently?  Talk about quick answers .....

Anyway, that's £22-odds gone to A J Sutton for a new one, now to look out the Dremel and a bloody big hammer - one to take the old one out, the other to gently insert the new .... watch this space.
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Dave Milnes
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« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2013, 20:48:42 »

Someone else did one recently and posted a report. I think the new one needs pressing in to the piece of frame assembly with a press or possibly a man sizes bench vise.
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2004 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - 2016 Maxsym 600i Sport
Anderton 2004, Pen-y-cae 2005, Matlock 2006, Hay on Wye 2007, Minehead 2008, St Florence 2010, Newent 2011, North Kyme 2012, Betsw-y-coed 2013, Hardraw 2014, Parkend 2015, Whitby 2016, Mundesley 2017, Derby 2018, Telford 2019, Loch Doon 2020, Cumbria 2021.
Kirriepete
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« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2013, 21:49:05 »

I was thinking more in terms of a length of threaded bar, a couple of nuts and a handful of washers/metal plates.  Combined with lobbing the new silentbloc in the freezer for a while and heating the frame assembly with a blowtorch, it should slip in without too much hassle.

(Yes, I've fitted many an interference fit bearing in my time .....)
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Kirriepete
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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2013, 17:09:13 »

Okay, been busy recently so the scoot has taken a back seat, so where were we .... ?

Oh yeah, replaced the squashy silentbloc thingy with the aid of a freezer and a g-clamp, wasn't too much of a bother, but I didn't have the camera to hand, sorry.  Has it transformed the handling?  Errr .... no.  The new one's a wee bitty stiffer than the old, but it still does the "throttle on/off lurching two-step" and pulls left when putting the back brake on going backwards.  Oh yeah, it also has a novel interpretation of what a straight line should be - more of a sine wave in fact.

So ..... engine mounts?  There's only the one on the back of the swingarm and the one on the rear shock as far as I can see (and the Hyenas book of dodgy guesses agrees), they're both tight and play-free.

Swingarm itself - this overly complex solution to the problem of letting the back wheel bounce up and down - Hyenas says to remove the engine before taking the swinger out, but a close look makes me think I can whip it out just by undoing the front engine mount, the torsion bar mount and then the main swinger spindle - am I just kidding myself?

You've got all weekend to come up with the perfect solution - I'm going to be shouting at instructing novices in how to ride safely, so won't be back in the shed until Monday (if SWMBO doesn't have other ideas first ......!)

All (relevant) suggestions welcome.
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Kirriepete
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2013, 22:13:46 »

Eureka!

See the big nut on the left hand side of the front swingarm mount?  See how the thread goes all the way through to the parallelogram bits with another big nut/hollow bolt on the inside?  Any guesses as to what the handling would be like if the previous owner didn't tighten up the inner nut, taking up the free side to side movement on the mount that allows you to remove/replace the swingarm without too much hassle......

Nut tightened, all threads copper greased, all bushes lithium/moly lubed ..... handling?  Tracking straight and true, throttle on/off lurch eliminated, hands off at 60-plus with no problems - still need to build confidence in 14/12 inch tyres in the twisties but it's a start!
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Dave Milnes
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2013, 07:05:22 »

Nice one. You can never ignore the possibility of previous owner/dealer work, but also never second guess those sort of issues either.
Catch 22, you have to dismantle and eliminate, but doing that sad silent bloc will guarantee a smooth run through the next MOT. Often they fail them simply because they look soft, even if it's having no discernible effect.
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2004 X9 500 Evo in YELLOW - 2016 Maxsym 600i Sport
Anderton 2004, Pen-y-cae 2005, Matlock 2006, Hay on Wye 2007, Minehead 2008, St Florence 2010, Newent 2011, North Kyme 2012, Betsw-y-coed 2013, Hardraw 2014, Parkend 2015, Whitby 2016, Mundesley 2017, Derby 2018, Telford 2019, Loch Doon 2020, Cumbria 2021.
Derek
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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2013, 08:58:03 »

The tyres are more than capable, ask the weekend crotch rocket riders I used to undertake on islands 
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Kirriepete
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« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2013, 15:06:22 »

The tyres are more than capable, ask the weekend crotch rocket riders I used to undertake on islands 

Definitely a case of 'The Indian, not the arrow' .... apologies to the guy on the Yam XT-something or other outside Newtyle earlier, didn't deliberately set out to run around the outside of you, but you were going sooooo slowly!
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