More electrical gremlins

[jagrunner]

Hi once again. Having cured my X9 500 SL's indicator/hazard fault, I was this morning hit with another electrical problem. I had started the engine to warm up whilst I donned my helmet & gloves (it was a little reluctant to start & required several presses of the start button) when suddenly the engine cut out. Thinking little of it, I pressed the starter button again to be met with a clicking sound from the starter relay ( the relay with a fuse, to the right of the battery). After a few attempts, I removed the battery & put it on charge before going to work in the car.
On my return & with the battery showing fully charged, I refitted it & tried again. Same result, just a clicking sound from the starer relay. Referring to this forum, I noticed a similar thread where Dave had replied, advising shorting across the two thick cables from the relay. So I tried this & once again, just a clicking from the relay.
Even tried my Gilera Runner battery, with the same result.
So, is it a) The starter relay, b) The battery or c) something else?
I looked on A J Sutton's spares website & there are a couple of different relays listed in the starter section. Which one is the starter relay with the fuse?
Finally, why oh why didn't Piaggio fit a kick start?   

[jimc]

If shorting across the two big red cables on top of the relay by using some long-nosed pliers didn't get the starter going (you shouldn't hear any click from the relay), then most probably you have a loose frame connection, especially as the bike just died.  Did any dash lights dim?

Normally a clicking relay just means the contacts are very dirty, and shorting the relay output will get the engine running just fine.

[lenny51]

 :x9red:If you have a multi meter just check across the smaller terminals on the starter relay if you get a very low resistance, then the coil is OK, if the reading is high or open circuit then the coil that close the contact is duff and you need a new relay. if they are OK then check input to coil, 12v when starter pressed. if OK try negative leg of coil this should be "dead down" to earth. if not then as suggested by jimc frame earth dodgy. if all OK check 12 volts to common side of relay, if OK and when starter pressed with everything in place should be 12volts at starter, if OK check earth side of starter is "dead down". if all is still OK. give starter a smack as it could be stuck, if this works you may need a new starter. good luck.

[jagrunner]

I've just tried once again to carry out the check as described by Jim, i.e. short across the two big red cables & again just a rapid clicking sound from the relay, no sign of the starter motor trying to operate.
Putting a test light across the terminals lights the lamp even with the ignition off, is this correct?
When you say it could possibly be a loose frame connection where should I begin my search?
Again, should I need a new relay, which one should I order? one is listed at £10 the other at around £48, which is which?   

[Dave Milnes]

If you bridge the two allen bolts on top of the relay the starter should spin without any clicking from anywhere.
If it doesn't then:-
a - the battery is dead flat or either main terminal is not securely fastened
b- there is no earth to the engine
c- the starter motor is goosed

Now as the bike was running and stopped of it's own accord the starter motor must be OK, and even if it's not, it wouldn't cause an already running engine to stop.
No earth to the engine - unlikely and as there are various earthing points it would take all of them to break before causing a total stop/non start problem.
A dead battery is exactly what would cause an engine to stop. Once there is no input via the regulator the battery drains to the point when it cannot supply the ignition coil and cold start device, lights etc with enough to maintain running.
Charging a dead battery though should at least get it started even if the battery is a dud and/or there is still no charge going into it. Chances are it will just go flat again pretty quickly.
582690 is the relay number.

Just a thought, but the 500 will not run and the starter wont work if the digidash is disconnected....
could the problem as with the indicators all be the dash?

[jagrunner]

Thanks Dave, your reasoning is similar to my own, which is why I tried to start the engine with my Runner battery. The fact that this too only produced a rapid clicking from the relay sort of ruled out the battery, unless of course the Runner battery isn't powerful enough.
When I turn on the ignition, all the digi dash lights come on as normal. When I pull on either brake & press the start button, I get the clicking noise & no sign of a start + the speedo & rev counter needles start to jump about.
What I have also noticed is that the rear brake check malfunction light comes on when I squeeze the rear brake lever, something that didn't happen before. Is this significant?
I just can't understand why the engine won't start when I bridge the terminals as this should put power to the starter motor & obviously this isn't happening. There was also a sulphur smell  when I tried to bridge the terminals, is this from the battery? 
I am wondering if I should replace the battery anyway as I don't know how long it has been on the bike & it has just passed through a seriously cold winter, so may be due for a change.

[jimc]

Rapid clicking from the relay indicates:
a) most likely - battery can't provide enough current at a suffient voltage (at least one shorted cell).
b) less likely - a higher load than normal, i.e. starter winding gone short - but this won't have made the bike stop in its tracks.

Check the voltage across the battery when the relay is clicking.  If less than 10V it is kaput.  Get a new one, give it a good forming charge before first use.  Then check it is being charged - 12.6V or more at idle, up to 14.6V when revved, and it shouldn't go over that.

It's very possible your regulator or stator or the connection between them has died, which caused the battery to die, so checking the charging is very much a part of the solution.

[x9500 steve]

Rear brake malfunction light comes on if you have them disconnected or if there  is a blown bulb. I would check  the fuse holders at the back for corrosion as  they can get pretty corroded and cause funny things to happen

[jagrunner]

Right, as you can tell , I'm no expert with electrics! I've been having another look at the X9.
Battery is giving 14v when connected to my charger, 12v when everything is off, dropping to just under 12v (11.8) when I turn the ignition on. When I try to start & have the rapid clicking sound the battery voltage drops to 7.5v. This then, would indicate that the battery is duff.
So I'm going to order a new one & take it from there!
 How do I gain access to the starter motor, it seems that I'll have to remove the Throttle body to reach it?  I only want to check if any power is reaching the starter motor!   

[Dave Milnes]

You can get to the nut on the top where the cable connects without removing anything else (apart from plastics).
I would doubt that either the motor or the cable is at fault, it would be a first if it is. They are normally not a problem.
I think you have found the problem and a new battery should have it running again fine. Because the 500 is 'power dependent' having a fuel pump and ECU/ignition to power just to keep an engine idling, if the power drops much below 12V it stops.
You then need to find out if there is any charge going into the battery to cause it to fail or was it just the battery expiring normally?

[jagrunner]

Yes Dave, hopefully a new battery will cure the situation. I will check the system is charging once the battery is fitted. If my luck holds, I hope the battery will cure it & I won't need any further parts/expense!
It seems to be a never ending catalogue of problems at the moment, I'd just like to be able to ride it!!!  Update to follow when iI fit the new battery.

[Dave Milnes]

It's probably one of the worst aspects of Piaggios, in that as soon as it looks like something is going wrong people sell them, trade them in or whatever, and even dealers don't put a lot of effort into fully checking them over before reselling. I think a lot of them hope you'll get long enough before the fault becomes noticeable then it'll be out of the 30 day warranty, the rest don't know enough about them to realize because they aren't trained.
With a private sale it's easy to make a bike seem absolutely fine for the duration of a test ride but be totally useless next day.
The absurdly lack lustre Piaggio parts availability doesn't help either as once bitten by the back order system to then still get the incorrect part, is something people won't tolerate.

Once you get it sorted it should be fine for quite a while and repay your patience.

[jagrunner]

Update: I purchased a new good quality Yuasa battery, gave it a good forming charge (Thanks Jim) & fitted it. Result, success!!!
Tried a few voltage checks with the engine idling & at higher revs & the bike is charging correctly! Phew!  Everything checks out O.K.  Seems like the fault was just the battery.
A big thank you to all those that posted on this thread. Now hopefully, I can enjoy riding the bike again!!

[Dave Milnes]

Result!